M. Lallier: I think, perhaps, there is some peoples for whom there is no difference between the soul and body.

Prabhupada: Who says?

M. Lallier: Oh, spiritual masters.

Prabhupada: Who’s that spiritual master, says soul and body there is no difference?

M. Lallier: Oh, I don’t know very… I think you are one of them. Or…?

Prabhupada: No, we don’t say. We say spirit soul is different from the body. Just like you are living, staying in this room. The room and you are two separate things. Because you are staying in the room, it does not mean you are room, or the room is your self. Does it mean?

M. Lallier: Yes.

Prabhupada: It means so? Because you are staying in this room, you are this room?

M. Lallier: No. But… No, I… I understand that… There is some difficulties for me about the signification of two Sanskrit words which are purusa and prakrti. Is there any relation between those two, those two…?

Prabhupada: Yes. Purusa means the enjoyer, and prakṛti means the enjoyed.

M. Lallier: I learned before that purusa means the great man.

Disciple: He says he also learned somewhere that purusa can refer to any great man or great person.

Prabhupada: So in the material world everyone thinks that he’s very great person. That is the disease. Everyone thinks that “I am the great.” This is called maya.

M. Lallier: Yes, I… Yes, Yes.

Prabhupada: Therefore, the living entity is called purusa, and that purusa wants to enjoy the prakrti.

M. Lallier: Is it possible to… (French)

Disciple: Is it possible for the soul to enjoy the material nature?

Prabhupada: It is not possible, but he’s trying to do that. That is the disease. Just like in your country, Napoleon, he tried his best to use whole Europe to be controlled by him. So he made some attempt, but he is finished now. The Europe is there, but he’s gone away. Similarly, it is just like… The example is: Just like a fly wants to enjoy the fire. He comes with force there, and he is finished. Similarly, in this material world, every, all living entities, they’re trying to enjoy. With great force, they are coming. And different capacities, they try to enjoy, but they themselves become finished. The things remain where it was. So so many living entities. The example, the fly is very proper. So many flies are coming, (makes sound:) “Phut! Phut! Phut! Phut!” in the big fire. You have no experience here?

Jyotirmayi: Yes.

M. Lallier: Why living entities does go to material…?

Disciple: Why does the living entity try to enjoy material nature in such a way?

Prabhupada: The, the… When he forgets that he cannot enjoy, the only enjoyer is God, Krsna, when he forgets this principle he wants to enjoy.

M. Lallier: Yes.

Prabhupada: That is called illusion, maya. Actually, he cannot enjoy, but, forgetting Krsna, the real enjoyer, he wants to enjoy. That is his… Just like a child imitates the mother for cooking. The other day, in Geneva, the fire ceremony was going on. The mother was offering oblations, and the child also immediately took some and he… You have seen that?

So he’s not fit for that business, but he imitates. That is childish. Sometimes goes to the kitchen, wants to make foodstuff, preparation, and he is given some toys that “You just play with it.” So every living entity is part and parcel of God. So God is enjoyer, God is controller. So he wants to imitate God. That is called maya.

Disciple: So what should the soul do if he cannot imitate God?

Prabhupada: Yes, the soul… Just like the same example. The child should be guided by the father and mother. Similarly, we should be guided by God, Krsna. That is our normal life. And the guidance is given personally by Krsna in the Bhagavad-gita. So if you follow the instruction of Bhagavad-gita, and be guided by God, then you are happy exactly like a child is happy when he’s under the protection of the parents.

Room Conversation with M. Lallier, noted French Poet

His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
June 12, 1974, Paris

Compiled by Aprakrita dasa